Comments on: Did Jesus Think He Was God? – John 17:3 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/ The King & The Kingdom Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:26:47 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Unitarians & High Christology « Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-2153 Unitarians & High Christology « Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:05:45 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-2153 [...] O commenting on “Did Jesus Think He Was God? - John [...] [...] O commenting on “Did Jesus Think He Was God? – John [...]

]]> By: Victor http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1243 Victor Tue, 19 Jun 2007 03:59:44 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1243 For anyone interested, in light of the topic of John 8:58, you might find it helpful to listen to the following teaching: http://www.highergroundonline.org/goodstuff/teachings/john8.mp3 (to download, right click and "save target as"). Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah throughout the chapter of John 8. The context really helps in this situation. Also, the same words that Jesus uses "ego eimi" which is translated "I am." in John 8:58 are used by him numerous times in the chapter yet translated "I am he" or "I am the one." Plus, in John 9:9, the formerly blind man, healed by Jesus uses this same phrase to identify who he is and yet nobody tried to stone him. It wasn't that Jesus was invoking the divine name of God, but instead was claiming to be the promised one, the Messiah and the Jews who were listening to him didn't like that one bit - especially since they thought he was a bastard - John 8:41b - "They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." Ouch... For anyone interested, in light of the topic of John 8:58, you might find it helpful to listen to the following teaching:

http://www.highergroundonline.org/goodstuff/teachings/john8.mp3

(to download, right click and “save target as”).

Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah throughout the chapter of John 8. The context really helps in this situation. Also, the same words that Jesus uses “ego eimi” which is translated “I am.” in John 8:58 are used by him numerous times in the chapter yet translated “I am he” or “I am the one.” Plus, in John 9:9, the formerly blind man, healed by Jesus uses this same phrase to identify who he is and yet nobody tried to stone him.

It wasn’t that Jesus was invoking the divine name of God, but instead was claiming to be the promised one, the Messiah and the Jews who were listening to him didn’t like that one bit – especially since they thought he was a bastard –

John 8:41b – “They said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God.”

Ouch…

]]> By: John Paul http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1241 John Paul Tue, 19 Jun 2007 03:07:12 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1241 Again, a quick post as it is late, ill try and talk more about this tomorrow. I have already addressed John 10:31 in this very thread and show that all there is to that verse is that he has been given the authority of God to judge. I wont repeat myself, just scroll up and read what I have had to say. in 8:59 we see a similar instance where he asserts his authority and the point was that Abraham was looking forward to the day when his seed would bless all the nations, fulfilled partially at the Death and resurrection, and also to be fulfilled when Abraham is resurrected to inherit the land that he was promised by God Hen Jesus comes to establish his kingdom here on earth. I dont see any claims to Deity in Mark 14:61. If you are referring to the words I am, there are other people who use that phrase that don't get stoned for blasphemy. He was tried after admitting to being the christ. and for making himself to be king of the Jews. My eyes are closing now and im going to sleep. I hope o find time to continue this 2morrow. God Bless Again, a quick post as it is late, ill try and talk more about this tomorrow. I have already addressed John 10:31 in this very thread and show that all there is to that verse is that he has been given the authority of God to judge. I wont repeat myself, just scroll up and read what I have had to say.
in 8:59 we see a similar instance where he asserts his authority and the point was that Abraham was looking forward to the day when his seed would bless all the nations, fulfilled partially at the Death and resurrection, and also to be fulfilled when Abraham is resurrected to inherit the land that he was promised by God Hen Jesus comes to establish his kingdom here on earth.
I dont see any claims to Deity in Mark 14:61. If you are referring to the words I am, there are other people who use that phrase that don’t get stoned for blasphemy. He was tried after admitting to being the christ. and for making himself to be king of the Jews.
My eyes are closing now and im going to sleep. I hope o find time to continue this 2morrow.
God Bless

]]> By: nick70 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1236 nick70 Tue, 19 Jun 2007 01:40:51 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1236 John Paul, I tend to agree with JohnO that Jesus' use of the title <i>Son of Man</i> was a Messianic self-description (note that he always uses it with the definite article <i>the</i>) alluding to Daniel 7:13-14. Some argue that the title is one of deity (e.g. Gary Habermas; Timothy C. Tennent; William Lane Craig; etc.) and there is good evidence for this in the contexts in which Jesus refers to himself as this. But I think you missed the point of my question to Sheila. Her objection is common amongst those who deny the deity of Christ. They look for a specific phrase (in this case "I am God") that appears nowhere in Scripture and then when it is not found conclude that the concept (or in this case declaration) is not there. I've spoken with many JWs and Muslims who raise this very same objection. So my point was that simply because Jesus never once says the exact words, "I am a man" doesn't mean that he isn't a man. But to say that he never stated plainly, culturally, or contextually that he was God is a definite misstatement. Jesus was nearly killed three times (Jo. 5:18; 8:59; 10:31-33) and he was convicted on the charge of blasphemy for making explicit claims to deity (Mk. 14:61 ff.). John Paul,

I tend to agree with JohnO that Jesus’ use of the title Son of Man was a Messianic self-description (note that he always uses it with the definite article the) alluding to Daniel 7:13-14. Some argue that the title is one of deity (e.g. Gary Habermas; Timothy C. Tennent; William Lane Craig; etc.) and there is good evidence for this in the contexts in which Jesus refers to himself as this.

But I think you missed the point of my question to Sheila. Her objection is common amongst those who deny the deity of Christ. They look for a specific phrase (in this case “I am God”) that appears nowhere in Scripture and then when it is not found conclude that the concept (or in this case declaration) is not there.

I’ve spoken with many JWs and Muslims who raise this very same objection. So my point was that simply because Jesus never once says the exact words, “I am a man” doesn’t mean that he isn’t a man.

But to say that he never stated plainly, culturally, or contextually that he was God is a definite misstatement. Jesus was nearly killed three times (Jo. 5:18; 8:59; 10:31-33) and he was convicted on the charge of blasphemy for making explicit claims to deity (Mk. 14:61 ff.).

]]> By: Victor http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1226 Victor Mon, 18 Jun 2007 21:07:00 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1226 I think to be the son of man means to be a man, but I also think that when Jesus used this phrase of himself (one of his favorites actually) he was drawing on the vision of Daniel 7: 13-14 - "I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him, His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." Jesus, the son of man, the second Adam is given the dominion and authority over the nations, that which Adam lost. Jesus will rule the world and have dominion over it. (He also extends this to those who follow him - see http://www.highergroundonline.org/goodstuff/articles/overcomeandreign.pdf) Paul calls Jesus a man and puts a definete separation and distinction between God and Jesus. I Timothy 2: 5 - For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. And that brings up back to subject of this post, the Father is the only true God, Jesus is the mediator between that God and us. I think to be the son of man means to be a man, but I also think that when Jesus used this phrase of himself (one of his favorites actually) he was drawing on the vision of Daniel 7:
13-14 – “I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations and men of every language might serve Him, His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed.”
Jesus, the son of man, the second Adam is given the dominion and authority over the nations, that which Adam lost. Jesus will rule the world and have dominion over it.
(He also extends this to those who follow him – see http://www.highergroundonline.org/goodstuff/articles/overcomeandreign.pdf)
Paul calls Jesus a man and puts a definete separation and distinction between God and Jesus.
I Timothy 2: 5 – For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
And that brings up back to subject of this post, the Father is the only true God, Jesus is the mediator between that God and us.

]]> By: John Paul http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1225 John Paul Mon, 18 Jun 2007 20:38:56 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1225 Sorry for not being around for a while, i have been busy, Nick i will address the questions you asked me in the above post soon, but I can answer this one quickly. The term son of man means man (human, descendent of Adam.) It always has in the scriptures that came before this time. Numbers 23:19, Job 25:6, Job 35:8, Psalm 8:4, Psalm 80:17,Psalm 144:3, Isaiah 51:12, Isaiah 56:2, Jeremiah 49:18, Jeremiah 49:33, Jeremiah 50:40, Jeremiah 51:43, all throughout Ezekiel, Daniel 7:13, Daniel 8:17, Micah 5:7 All us the term son of man in reference to human beings. Son of man means to be a man. So there are many time that Jesus stated plainly that he is a man. Culturally and contextually, that what Son of man means. Nowhere did he state plainly, culturally or contextually that he was God. Sorry for not being around for a while, i have been busy, Nick i will address the questions you asked me in the above post soon, but I can answer this one quickly. The term son of man means man (human, descendent of Adam.) It always has in the scriptures that came before this time.

Numbers 23:19, Job 25:6, Job 35:8, Psalm 8:4, Psalm 80:17,Psalm 144:3, Isaiah 51:12, Isaiah 56:2, Jeremiah 49:18, Jeremiah 49:33, Jeremiah 50:40, Jeremiah 51:43, all throughout Ezekiel, Daniel 7:13, Daniel 8:17, Micah 5:7

All us the term son of man in reference to human beings. Son of man means to be a man. So there are many time that Jesus stated plainly that he is a man. Culturally and contextually, that what Son of man means. Nowhere did he state plainly, culturally or contextually that he was God.

]]> By: nick70 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1209 nick70 Mon, 18 Jun 2007 08:02:02 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1209 Sheila, You said: <blockquote>Jesus has never claimed to be God, but he has always said that he is the son of God. I’m sure many would like to say that he has claimed to be God, but when examining the scriptrues, one will not find Jesus saying, I am God, never will you find these words.</blockquote> You might be interested to know that Jesus also never claimed to be <i>a man</i> but he always said that he was the <i>son of man</i>. So I'm curious, since you can't find the words <i>"I am a man"</i> (εγω ανθρωπος ειμι) coming from Jesus' mouth anywhere in the New Testament, would you also conclude that Jesus was not a man? And just something for you to think about... would being "one in unity" and "one in mind" be something that pointed towards or away from being one in being? Nick Sheila,

You said:

Jesus has never claimed to be God, but he has always said that he is the son of God. I’m sure many would like to say that he has claimed to be God, but when examining the scriptrues, one will not find Jesus saying, I am God, never will you find these words.

You might be interested to know that Jesus also never claimed to be a man but he always said that he was the son of man.

So I’m curious, since you can’t find the words “I am a man” (εγω ανθρωπος ειμι) coming from Jesus’ mouth anywhere in the New Testament, would you also conclude that Jesus was not a man?

And just something for you to think about… would being “one in unity” and “one in mind” be something that pointed towards or away from being one in being?

Nick

]]> By: nick70 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1203 nick70 Mon, 18 Jun 2007 05:36:14 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1203 Sean, I don't know many (if any at all) believers in the deity of Christ who haven't questioned it. I don't think that fideism honors God and it certainly doesn't fulfill the command to love God with all of our mind. I'm curious to know if you believe that excommunicating heretics is wrong? Would your congregation welcome into fellowship those who denied the uni-personality of the god you worship? If they stopped believing in the monistic unity of your god would your congregation allow them to remain? If so, is that really the Biblical thing to do? And if you could send me that free book I'd be more than happy to read it ;) Sean,

I don’t know many (if any at all) believers in the deity of Christ who haven’t questioned it. I don’t think that fideism honors God and it certainly doesn’t fulfill the command to love God with all of our mind.

I’m curious to know if you believe that excommunicating heretics is wrong? Would your congregation welcome into fellowship those who denied the uni-personality of the god you worship? If they stopped believing in the monistic unity of your god would your congregation allow them to remain? If so, is that really the Biblical thing to do?

And if you could send me that free book I’d be more than happy to read it ;)

]]> By: Sheila http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1189 Sheila Sun, 17 Jun 2007 16:16:53 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1189 Dustin, Thank you for your help. I will check into the web site you provided for me. I would appreciate you keeping in touch with me. THANK YOU AGAIN, SHEILA Dustin,

Thank you for your help. I will check into the web site you provided for me. I would appreciate you keeping in touch with me.

THANK YOU AGAIN,
SHEILA

]]> By: Dustin Smith http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1167 Dustin Smith Sat, 16 Jun 2007 16:38:05 +0000 http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2007/05/23/did-jesus-think-he-was-god-john-173/#comment-1167 Sheila, Good to hear that you are searching for truth, which God seeks from all of His creation. Yes, check out the site that Sean just linked to and continue to search and ask questions. www.restorationfellowship.org may also be of some help. Dustin Sheila,

Good to hear that you are searching for truth, which God seeks from all of His creation. Yes, check out the site that Sean just linked to and continue to search and ask questions. http://www.restorationfellowship.org may also be of some help.

Dustin

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