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	<title>Comments on: Evolution of the Creeds</title>
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	<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/</link>
	<description>The King &#38; The Kingdom</description>
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		<title>By: Jared Nelson</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3168</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Nov 2008 15:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The Triune God is older than Judaism and Trinitarianism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Triune God is older than Judaism and Trinitarianism.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnO</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3167</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 15:51:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jewish monotheism is older than Trinitarian orthodoxy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jewish monotheism is older than Trinitarian orthodoxy</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Cottrill</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3165</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Cottrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:40:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3165</guid>
		<description>Thank you Jared for defending orthodox Christianity against this Unitarian rubbish.  It&#039;s sad to see people reject the true faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Jared for defending orthodox Christianity against this Unitarian rubbish.  It&#8217;s sad to see people reject the true faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Nelson</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3163</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 04:28:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I merely pointed out he does not properly understand Trinitarianism. I guess it depends on what you mean by dialogue. I&#039;m not interested in heretical Unitarian beliefs. Also, frankly, the Unitarian works I&#039;ve read on the atonement are merely reactionary against Orthodox Christianity rather than positive systems, as is most of Unitarianism - it is mere modernist ego that prefers what is new to what is old merely for novelty sake. Such is most American/English modern heresies (Mormon, One-ness Pentacostals, Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses, etc).  I am concerned that you embrace the Christian faith and give up your sect and heresy. I pray you do for the salvation of your soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I merely pointed out he does not properly understand Trinitarianism. I guess it depends on what you mean by dialogue. I&#8217;m not interested in heretical Unitarian beliefs. Also, frankly, the Unitarian works I&#8217;ve read on the atonement are merely reactionary against Orthodox Christianity rather than positive systems, as is most of Unitarianism &#8211; it is mere modernist ego that prefers what is new to what is old merely for novelty sake. Such is most American/English modern heresies (Mormon, One-ness Pentacostals, Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses, etc).  I am concerned that you embrace the Christian faith and give up your sect and heresy. I pray you do for the salvation of your soul.</p>
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		<title>By: JohnO</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3162</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnO</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 22:03:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3162</guid>
		<description>Jared,

I&#039;ve done a fair bit of work concerning the atonement. I would offer it, but it seems that you aren&#039;t much interested in a dialogue.  Sean brings up viable points and you hand-wave them away as &quot;you just don&#039;t understand&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jared,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve done a fair bit of work concerning the atonement. I would offer it, but it seems that you aren&#8217;t much interested in a dialogue.  Sean brings up viable points and you hand-wave them away as &#8220;you just don&#8217;t understand&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Nelson</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3161</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Nov 2008 14:53:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3161</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I see I did not answer 3 errors you made:

1) You said “What makes sacrifices work is that God accepts them.” 

Since Unitarians like to accuse all Christians of using Greek Philosophy, I shall point out that such a statement has more in common with Medieval philosophies of Nominism rather than 1st Century Christianity. If God is Just, injustice demands by God’s nature to be answered, and not just because he feels like it.

2) You said “What makes Jesus’ sacrifice work is that God accepts it, not that Jesus is in some mysterious and ontological way equivalent to all humans who ever lived in value. The Bible just doesn’t talk that way ”

I recommend Paul epistles for your consideration, for the Scriptures do speak that way:

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 
Rom 5:15  But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man&#039;s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.

3) You said “In addition, according to the Trinity Jesus is God thus he is immortal (immortal = unable to die cf. 1 Tim 1.17). So, Jesus didn’t really die on the cross in the trinitarian framework. No, only impersonal human nature died. The person, Jesus, survived his own death as 100% God.”

I would suggest understanding Trinitarian theology before attacking it. Jesus is one person, two natures. Those two natures are his person and neither is “impersonal” but make up his person. Jesus was without sin (Heb 4:15), and thus would never die. How did Christ die then? He became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Who died? The person Jesus Christ, not a nature.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I see I did not answer 3 errors you made:</p>
<p>1) You said “What makes sacrifices work is that God accepts them.” </p>
<p>Since Unitarians like to accuse all Christians of using Greek Philosophy, I shall point out that such a statement has more in common with Medieval philosophies of Nominism rather than 1st Century Christianity. If God is Just, injustice demands by God’s nature to be answered, and not just because he feels like it.</p>
<p>2) You said “What makes Jesus’ sacrifice work is that God accepts it, not that Jesus is in some mysterious and ontological way equivalent to all humans who ever lived in value. The Bible just doesn’t talk that way ”</p>
<p>I recommend Paul epistles for your consideration, for the Scriptures do speak that way:</p>
<p>1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.<br />
Rom 5:15  But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man&#8217;s trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.</p>
<p>3) You said “In addition, according to the Trinity Jesus is God thus he is immortal (immortal = unable to die cf. 1 Tim 1.17). So, Jesus didn’t really die on the cross in the trinitarian framework. No, only impersonal human nature died. The person, Jesus, survived his own death as 100% God.”</p>
<p>I would suggest understanding Trinitarian theology before attacking it. Jesus is one person, two natures. Those two natures are his person and neither is “impersonal” but make up his person. Jesus was without sin (Heb 4:15), and thus would never die. How did Christ die then? He became sin for us (2 Cor 5:21) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Who died? The person Jesus Christ, not a nature.</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Nelson</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3160</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 15:37:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3160</guid>
		<description>On the “development of the creeds” - Indeed, there is a development of language. This does not mean that the concept of Jesus as God was a development. Our Scientific language about anatomy has developed, but we did not invent anatomy, but observed it. The concept that Jesus is God is present in the Scriptures and the language develops as various ways to communicate the original concept are explored and some ruled incongruent with Scripture. Development is not invention, it is a search for precision. 

On the sacrifice of the God-man. Infinite offense must have an infinite answer. God makes clear in Isaiah in several places, of which Isaiah 43:11 is an example that: “I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.” We would understand this in an ultimate sense. The accomplishment of ultimate salvation of the soul is the work of God. Indeed, this is the image presented in John 4:42 when they spoke of Jesus: ‘They said to the woman, &quot;It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.&quot;‘

God shares His glory with no man The Scriptures make clear commands that no one is to be worshiped except God. (Ps 115:1, Isa 42:8, Luke 4:8) Yet, we also see that the author of Hebrews wants to attack the idea that Jesus is just a high figure like an angel. In Heb 1:5-6, the author writes that the Father says of the Son: &quot;Let all God&#039;s angels worship him.&quot; 

Language is a malleable thing that can be twisted to one’s own fancy. I’m sure that you can try to get out of the Scripture calling Jesus God (as is admitted) and that words ascribed to Yahweh are said to be words the Father speaks to Jesus (Heb 1:8). At some point, you must ask yourself: What if &quot;Jesus is God,&quot; means that Jesus is truly the God of Israel, Creator and worthy of worship as God? To deny Him that honor and glory is to deny God. You believe that God is one? Even the demons believe that, it is not sufficient. God is one. And the Father is God, The Son is God and the Spirit is God. I invite you to worship the God who is. May your beliefs match the sentiments of Christians since the beginning, as a Christian in 110AD wrote:

&quot;My spirit is a humble sacrifice for the cross, which is the stumbling block to unbelievers but salvation and eternal life to us. Where is the wise? Where is the debater? Where is the boasting of those who are thought to be intelligent? For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God&#039;s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.”

To deny Jesus is God, is to deny he is the Christ, for to be Christ is to be God (Jer 23:5-6). The Child to be born is to be called “mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6). To deny Christ is to be without Christ, which in itself is hell. I pray you come to know Jesus as Lord, in all that entails. Do not look to explain away the teaching and language of Scripture. Jesus is God, and worthy of your worship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the “development of the creeds” &#8211; Indeed, there is a development of language. This does not mean that the concept of Jesus as God was a development. Our Scientific language about anatomy has developed, but we did not invent anatomy, but observed it. The concept that Jesus is God is present in the Scriptures and the language develops as various ways to communicate the original concept are explored and some ruled incongruent with Scripture. Development is not invention, it is a search for precision. </p>
<p>On the sacrifice of the God-man. Infinite offense must have an infinite answer. God makes clear in Isaiah in several places, of which Isaiah 43:11 is an example that: “I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior.” We would understand this in an ultimate sense. The accomplishment of ultimate salvation of the soul is the work of God. Indeed, this is the image presented in John 4:42 when they spoke of Jesus: ‘They said to the woman, &#8220;It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.&#8221;‘</p>
<p>God shares His glory with no man The Scriptures make clear commands that no one is to be worshiped except God. (Ps 115:1, Isa 42:8, Luke 4:8) Yet, we also see that the author of Hebrews wants to attack the idea that Jesus is just a high figure like an angel. In Heb 1:5-6, the author writes that the Father says of the Son: &#8220;Let all God&#8217;s angels worship him.&#8221; </p>
<p>Language is a malleable thing that can be twisted to one’s own fancy. I’m sure that you can try to get out of the Scripture calling Jesus God (as is admitted) and that words ascribed to Yahweh are said to be words the Father speaks to Jesus (Heb 1:8). At some point, you must ask yourself: What if &#8220;Jesus is God,&#8221; means that Jesus is truly the God of Israel, Creator and worthy of worship as God? To deny Him that honor and glory is to deny God. You believe that God is one? Even the demons believe that, it is not sufficient. God is one. And the Father is God, The Son is God and the Spirit is God. I invite you to worship the God who is. May your beliefs match the sentiments of Christians since the beginning, as a Christian in 110AD wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;My spirit is a humble sacrifice for the cross, which is the stumbling block to unbelievers but salvation and eternal life to us. Where is the wise? Where is the debater? Where is the boasting of those who are thought to be intelligent? For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God&#8217;s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.”</p>
<p>To deny Jesus is God, is to deny he is the Christ, for to be Christ is to be God (Jer 23:5-6). The Child to be born is to be called “mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6). To deny Christ is to be without Christ, which in itself is hell. I pray you come to know Jesus as Lord, in all that entails. Do not look to explain away the teaching and language of Scripture. Jesus is God, and worthy of your worship.</p>
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		<title>By: Sean</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3159</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3159</guid>
		<description>Jared Nelson,

On John 20.28 (and also Heb 1.8) see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kingdomready.org/topics/audio.php?link=http://www.theradicalreformation.com/media/one_god_conferences/2008/audio/Sean%20Finnegan%20--%20Jesus%20is%20God&amp;notes=http://www.theradicalreformation.com/media/one_god_conferences/2008/papers/Sean%20Finnegan%20--%20Jesus%20is%20God&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this article&lt;/a&gt;.

On the idea that because Jesus is not a &quot;God-Man&quot; he cannot accomplish salvation, do you have a single verse to that effect?  The OT system consisted of killing unblemished animals to atone for the sins of the people.  Everyone then and now knows that a sheep, goat, bull, or cow&#039;s life is not 100% equal to the lives of all the people for whom the animal was atoning.  What makes sacrifices work is that God accepts them.  So, the OT precedent is that the sacrifice is never of equivalent value to the people.  What makes Jesus&#039; sacrifice work is that God accepts it, not that Jesus is in some mysterious and ontological way equivalent to all humans who ever lived in value.  The Bible just doesn&#039;t talk that way (though St. Anselm did).

In addition, according to the Trinity Jesus is God thus he is immortal (immortal = unable to die cf. 1 Tim 1.17).  So, Jesus didn&#039;t really die on the cross in the trinitarian framework.  No, only impersonal human nature died.  The person, Jesus, survived his own death as 100% God.  Thus, the biblical unitarian understanding of Jesus&#039; death attributes much more significance to the cross event because we recognize that a perfect human actually and literally died (ceased to live) for those three days.  For a God-man to shed the &quot;man&quot; for 3 days is no big deal...he still survives as God (and what we have is a stunt not an actual death).  However, for a human to trust God to the point of death even death on a cross is a marvelous example to us of how we should be.  

grace  &amp; peace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jared Nelson,</p>
<p>On John 20.28 (and also Heb 1.8) see <a href="http://www.kingdomready.org/topics/audio.php?link=http://www.theradicalreformation.com/media/one_god_conferences/2008/audio/Sean%20Finnegan%20--%20Jesus%20is%20God&amp;notes=http://www.theradicalreformation.com/media/one_god_conferences/2008/papers/Sean%20Finnegan%20--%20Jesus%20is%20God" rel="nofollow">this article</a>.</p>
<p>On the idea that because Jesus is not a &#8220;God-Man&#8221; he cannot accomplish salvation, do you have a single verse to that effect?  The OT system consisted of killing unblemished animals to atone for the sins of the people.  Everyone then and now knows that a sheep, goat, bull, or cow&#8217;s life is not 100% equal to the lives of all the people for whom the animal was atoning.  What makes sacrifices work is that God accepts them.  So, the OT precedent is that the sacrifice is never of equivalent value to the people.  What makes Jesus&#8217; sacrifice work is that God accepts it, not that Jesus is in some mysterious and ontological way equivalent to all humans who ever lived in value.  The Bible just doesn&#8217;t talk that way (though St. Anselm did).</p>
<p>In addition, according to the Trinity Jesus is God thus he is immortal (immortal = unable to die cf. 1 Tim 1.17).  So, Jesus didn&#8217;t really die on the cross in the trinitarian framework.  No, only impersonal human nature died.  The person, Jesus, survived his own death as 100% God.  Thus, the biblical unitarian understanding of Jesus&#8217; death attributes much more significance to the cross event because we recognize that a perfect human actually and literally died (ceased to live) for those three days.  For a God-man to shed the &#8220;man&#8221; for 3 days is no big deal&#8230;he still survives as God (and what we have is a stunt not an actual death).  However, for a human to trust God to the point of death even death on a cross is a marvelous example to us of how we should be.  </p>
<p>grace  &amp; peace</p>
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		<title>By: Victor</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3158</link>
		<dc:creator>Victor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 13:07:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3158</guid>
		<description>Jared, thanks for logging on and commenting.  Do you see a change in the creeds as has been cited above?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jared, thanks for logging on and commenting.  Do you see a change in the creeds as has been cited above?</p>
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		<title>By: Jared Nelson</title>
		<link>http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3156</link>
		<dc:creator>Jared Nelson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 05:26:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://highergroundonline.wordpress.com/2008/01/31/evolution-of-the-creeds/#comment-3156</guid>
		<description>I pray one day you may embrace the Christian faith. Your comments attacking the doctrines of the church are disturbing, you cannot do so and be a Christian. Let us consider that knowing God is important and no attempt to communicate all that God is is a mere confusing of the laity. One needs not only confess that God is one (for the devils do that). But also, Jesus must be greeted with the confession of Thomas &quot;My Lord and My God.&quot; (John 20:28). Your salvation cannot be accomplished by a mere man, but only by the God-man Jesus Christ. The mere fact of the horrific neglect of teaching doctrine does not justify not teaching it or mocking it. It is the highest call of the church to proclaim the God who is, the Triune, Tri-Personal God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I pray one day you may embrace the Christian faith. Your comments attacking the doctrines of the church are disturbing, you cannot do so and be a Christian. Let us consider that knowing God is important and no attempt to communicate all that God is is a mere confusing of the laity. One needs not only confess that God is one (for the devils do that). But also, Jesus must be greeted with the confession of Thomas &#8220;My Lord and My God.&#8221; (John 20:28). Your salvation cannot be accomplished by a mere man, but only by the God-man Jesus Christ. The mere fact of the horrific neglect of teaching doctrine does not justify not teaching it or mocking it. It is the highest call of the church to proclaim the God who is, the Triune, Tri-Personal God.</p>
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