Another Trinity Debate – Hosted by the Biblical Unitarian Society of Southhampton

The Biblical Unitarian Society at the University of Southampton, UK, has hosted a debate on the Trinity. The debate occurred on June 16th, 2008. Representing the trinitarian side were two Anglicans, Prof. Keith Fox and Chris Halls both from Highfield Church. The two biblical unitarians that participated in the debate were Ray Faircloth of Restoration Fellowship and Thomas Gaston, a Christadelphian. The debate lasted nearly three hours and is available now online in both audio and video formats.

Program Timetable
Introduction by Michael Ng [5 min]

Opening Statement by trinitarian Chris Halls [20 min]
Opening Statement by unitarian Thomas Gaston [20 min]
Opening Statement by trinitarian Prof. Keith Fox [20 min]
Opening Statement by unitarian Ray Faircloth [20 min]

Rebuttal by trinitarian Chris Halls [5 min]
Rebuttal by unitarian Thomas Gaston [5 min]
Rebuttal by trinitarian Prof. Keith Fox [5 min]
Rebuttal by unitarian Ray Faircloth [5 min]

Q&A [approx 45 min]

Video [watch] [download]
Audio [listen] [download]

Note: the video file is quite large and may take some time to buffer when watching online.

(Please see our blog for other featured debates)

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14 responses to this post.

  1. Hi All

    The Apostle Paul in his defence before King Agrippa said these words Acts 26:6 And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers. 7 To this promise our twelve tribes, earnestly serving God night and day, hope to attain. For this hope’s sake, King Agrippa, I am accused by the Jews. What is this hope and promise that Paul was referring to? Well to put it simply The Hope of Israel are the promises made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob this is the true Gospel Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

    Galatians 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

    So we can see from the above that the gospel was preached by God to Abraham. Well let’s take a closer look at what God said to Abraham. Genesis 13:14 And the LORD said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are-northward, southward, eastward, and westward; 15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.” God said “I give it to You” this is a personal promise by God to Abraham. In Hebrews 6 the writer confirmed the promise to Abraham, Hebrews6:13 For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, 14 saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.” 15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. 16 For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. 17 Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, 18 that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us. It is quite clear from this that God has made a promise to Abraham. Well how is God going to keep this promise? Let us go back to the Apostle Paul who believes in the resurrection of the dead Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust. Therefore the only way in which God’s promise to Abraham can be fulfilled is by raising Abraham from the dead and giving him the land.
    But wait a minute that is not all, it get’s more exciting because God made similar promises to Isaac and Jacob. First of all the promise to Isaac. Genesis26:2 Then the LORD appeared to him and said: “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land of which I shall tell you. 3 Dwell in this land, and I will be with you and bless you; for to you and your descendants I give all these lands, and I will perform the oath which I swore to Abraham your father. 4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” Here we have another personal promise this time to Isaac, the same applies as to Abraham, the only way in which God can keep this promise to Isaac is by raising him from the dead in the resurrection.

    Genesis 28:13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants…….”.

    And also to Jacob, God confirmed the promises to Abraham and Isaac, Genesis 28:13 And behold, the LORD stood above it and said: “I am the LORD God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie I will give to you and your descendants…….”
    Also besides the promises of the land, God also made promises of the ‘seed’ that would come through them, Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed”, who is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect. 18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
    God also made promises to Jesus, Psalm 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, “You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek.” and in another place God says Luke 1:32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. So here we have Jesus a King and Priest after the order of Melchizedek (who was High Priest and King of Salem) being given the Throne of His father David (through the line of Mary)

    So there you are, we have the Gospel – ‘The Hope of Israel’

    God also made promises to ‘us’ Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. So in order to be an heir (Sons of God) we need to have faith in God and believe in the things concerning Jesus and the Kingdom of God and be baptized into the saving name of Jesus.
    So there you are, we have the Gospel – ‘The Hope of Israel’ – that God would raise the dead (Abraham, Isaac Jacob and their descendants by faith) to inherit the land. The seed, being Jesus, the promised Messiah as King and High Priest of Israel, ruling the world in righteousness from Jerusalem.
    See also: http://www.tudor.vc/trinity9h.html
    GOD Bless
    luigie

    Reply

  2. Hi All
    The Trinity was invented for political purposes and only flourished by the sword. It is not Christian at all. It is Pagan in its origins and in its applications.
    See above URL and also http://www.tudor.vc/trinity9.html
    to review the repugnant manner of its inception and history.
    Luigie

    Reply

  3. The Bible in its original languages never identifies Jesus as God. Its texts that traditionalists cite to support that it does so are mistranslated or misinterpreted. Jesus clearly affirmed the Shema, that there is numercially one God (Mark 12.28-34). He often called this one God “my/the Father.” Once he prayed to the Father, calling him “the only true God” (John 17.3; cf. 5.44). A few times he referred to the Father as “my God” (on the cross and in John 20.17; Rev 3.2, 12). And the apostle Paul clearly distinguishes between the Father as the only God and Jesus as Lord.

    Learn this and much more in my new, 600-page book, The Restitution of Jesus Christ, available for now only at my website at servetustheevangelical.com. This book may be the most formidable, well-researched, biblically in-depth book to ever challenge the church dogma that Jesus is God while affirming all other major church teachings about Jesus.

    Reply

  4. Posted by Mark on November 21, 2009 at 4:04 pm

    I would love to hear your thoughts on this post:

    http://loga-abdullah.blogspot.com/2009/03/dawah-biblical-errors.html

    Thanks.

    Reply

    • Mark,

      I haven’t really examined this, but this link popped up with a quick search “errors in the Quran”:

      http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/

      I guess the debate goes both ways. We must keep in mind that although Christinas believe the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, it was indeed penned by imperfect human hands–not by forceful manipulation by God.

      And certainly we will find errors handed down, whether they be copiest or translation. I think the accuracies of the Bible are more stunning and profound than the few pidly inaccuracies we may find.

      A Christian woman named Tishrei, a former Muslim, pointed this out beautifuly in her latest post on her blog, which, coincidently, I came upon for the first time earlier this evening prior to viewing your comment:

      http://fruitoftheword.com/2009/11/27/how-do-we-know-the-bible-is-the-word-of-god/

      Both the Bible and Quran are ancient manuscripts passed down through the ages during a time when there was no archiving technology such as we have today, and the manuscripts have been copied and translated many times over.

      Reply

      • Hi Mark.

        I just came across this now.

        I think one major difference is that the link you provided about the Qur’an was written by non-Muslims who don’t speak Arabic. Whereas the link that was provided about the Bible are errors that are agreed upon by Christian scholars themselves.

        I think you’ll recognize the important difference there.

        All the best.

      • Just a quick note about the link as well: I think you’ll agree that a conversion story by someone who grew up self-proclaimed secular life is not proof in and of itself. Clearly the author has not studied the Sciences of Islam and we can not take such an antidote as proof in and of itself of the truth – and if that were the case I could just as easily provide links of thousands of conversion stories, of American Christians who became Muslims. Rather that do that, let us stick to the facts and seek out that is which truth and that which is falsehood.

        All the best.

  5. Posted by JayBird632 on November 27, 2009 at 5:54 am

    Who created the universe? God or Jesus?

    Reply

  6. of course God created the universe. and God created Jesus. Jesus is the son of God but not “God the son”

    Reply

  7. Posted by chrisby on February 19, 2010 at 3:04 pm

    I was raised a Trinitarian. My brother challenged me to find out what I believe and why. I am not liking what I find. I was always taught to use scripture to prove beliefs out.(They must all agree) The facts and history have led me to change my theology. The early church was not required to believe in the Trinity to be saved. Why is that required of people today? What changed.

    Reply

  8. Posted by Jaybird632 on February 20, 2010 at 3:18 am

    The Genesis account describes God creating all things

    Other passages describe Jesus Christ creating all creation:

    John 1:3—“All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
    Col.1:16—“For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible…all things have been created through Him and For Him”

    Who did it?

    Reply

  9. Posted by Joshua ben Adam on March 16, 2012 at 7:32 pm

    Study the fact that Messiah, the Son of GOD is actually the High Priest to the Almighty Father, our GOD, and all these arguments would cease!

    Reply

  10. Posted by Joshua ben Adam on March 16, 2012 at 7:44 pm

    The poser that defines the dilemma of  trinitarians, and which is further confounded by antitrinitarian impatience and sometimes lack of accuracy themselves, is the big question: ‘”If Messiah is truly equal, that is “co-equal” with God, as trinity dogmas state, how come that he is still “man, with flesh and bones”, after resurrection, see Luke 24:34-42, different and subject to the One True GOD of all creation, who is Spirit, and to whom scriptures show the true Messiah, as ministering to as High Priest? See 1 Cor. 15:24-28 and Hebrews 8:1-3. To this, the corollary poser, “What is the meaning and status of High Priest, viz a viz the Almighty GOD, or Deity?
    Even the so called 2nd Person, or is it 3rd Person of the Trinity depends on the Father for what to say and for authority, according to Jesus in John 16:12-13!

    HEAR O ISRAEL, THE LORD, YHVH, OUR GOD IS ONE LORD!

    Shalom greetings!

    Reply

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